Template talk:Item

Discussion

First run at a possible item template. I have absolutely no idea how to handle the categories.... Skace 15:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

There is already a template in place, and frankly I like how the older stuff looks more. Pollo 8/27/08

The old way is very inflexible, new information should really be added using the new templates, which can be customized later without having to go back to each article (although I think we should try to make the new templates look like the old ones, at least for items, with its monospaced IDs). --Poromenos 22:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Wish you had talked to me about this. There is a million better ways of doing fixed spacing than the giant gray box. And even if the giant box was preferable, we could have done it without changing the item ID numbering schemes. You've made the template less flexible in the process and forced updating many items when the change could have been done with a simple <pre></pre> tags! This would have taken 10 minutes! Skace 09:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Previously, with numbered item tags, we could have done a lot. You could have colored each line to make it look identical to the game, or grabbed values from the items based on the lines, however with a single ID line we can't do any of that. I don't know, I'm too tired to think about this right now. And Pollo instead of reverting a bunch of items backwards, you could have talked to someone and voiced your issues without creating more work. Skace 10:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

This is more of a test, really. We can easily change these back to what they were (they are 20 items and I used a bot to do it). I couldn't find you on the mud to talk about it, we should really exchange MSN details or something. I like your idea of different colors, but I don't like the semantic implications of id1-15 because it means that the are semantically separate, even though they really aren't. At any rate, the old template is just one revert away, I'll be hanging out in the MUD so please send me a tell when you see me on. --Poromenos 14:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it's good that used a bot because it would be a pain in the ass to set that stuff back. I realize id1-15 isn't perfect. 1 id value would be nice if this was perl and I could parse it to pieces manually in the template. But that isn't the case, so id1-15 does the job and doesn't hurt anything in the process. It's not even that bad when you are creating the item. The reason I'm not on RoD -- can't from work :). Skace 17:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I notice you've been contributing a lot to RoDpedia lately. While this is awesome, you really need to follow the original templates put in place. I have links to what they look like in my profile thingy. Your way may be more efficient, and perhaps you can implement it according to the guidelines. If you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about, here are a few examples. 1. Area directions need to be at the top of the page. This is not for aesthetic reasons, it is simply the most important information the page has to offer. 2. Proper indentation for item identifies and area help file info. This makes it easy to read, and keeps it looking like the MUD. - Pollo

Here is where I disagree with both you and Poro but I will never win this one. Poro once wrote something to the effect of "a wikipedia is an encyclopedia" I think it was about making sure you link whenever possible. Like an encyclopedia, the first piece of information should always be the definition. It doesn't matter whether I click on an item, a person, an area, a script, my first question that should always get answered is "what is it".

The Sentinel is the vast forest west of Darkhaven that harbors many settlements, including the small, isolated village of Kusnir. Plagued by constant troubles, this fishing village on the shores of Lake Spendlowe is desperate for someone to seek out the source of the evil that besieges their simple hamlet. It is rumored that a powerful magical artifact of ancient origin yet exists somewhere in the dangerous lands surrounding Kusnir...but who knows?

The Ivory colored tower shield of the Lily is a large ivory coloured shield that has four coloured laurel leaves wrapped around a lily depicted upon it. In the form of a holy symbol can be seen the following phrase, emblazoned upon it: Contrecto Mihi Ineo Inculpatus.

Papa Kurst is the elder of the village Kushnir. Papa Kurst is a hardy old coot, with years of experience in the ways of the world to aid him in leading his beloved village. He will not tolerate any trouble, but will be glad to see any adventurers who would help him against the enemy.

I'm giving the reader a description of what they've clicked on first. Then I can go into any other areas, what that item identifies as, the directions to that area, whether that person is a vendor, the map, etc. These are all supplemental areas of information. I also disagree with your assessment that directions to an area are the most important piece of information on an area page. I'd say the most important piece of information on the page is the map, so based on your thinking, we should put the map first. Hell, I'll go by that logic, 9 times out of 10 the only thing I'm looking for is the map so who gives a crap about the rest of the page.

I also disagree with "keeping it looking like a mud", this is a website, I'm using a web browser, I'm not sure what you guys browse the web with. RoD has limitations because it is run in a telnet window, these limitations do not need to carry over to a webpage, you code to the strengths and weaknesses of each client. However, I can understand why we might want the identity information looking similar to the mud, I'd also argue the identity information doesn't look anything like the mud in it's current incarnation, at least what the mud looks like on my PC, I have colors and a black background. Skace 11:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd love for this website to one day be as useful as the Mass Effect wiki or the Nethack wiki. But it's seriously got a long way to go. Skace 11:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with that on the basis that the user of the site is not someone who would come here to learn about an area, they would come to find a specific piece of info, which is, in approximate order of usefulness the dirs, the map, the items/mobs, instructions and the description. I don't really think that anyone would go to the site to get the description when they could just as easily do "areas Sentinel" to get it. I agree with you that we are free to do more with the web browser, and I like your idea of coloring things differently, but sometimes the MUD includes ASCII graphics for which a monospaced font is absolutely necessary. I have a strong preference for using a monospaced font, but I can be persuaded against it if the argument is compelling... --Poromenos 14:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Look at the sandbox examples below, every single one of them is monospaced, only 1 uses <pre></pre> tags. <tt></tt> is the standard monospaced flag which can be placed on any text anywhere. You can also set style settings which I did below in test2, forcing a monospaced style. If monospaced is the entire site direction, update the common.css and make monospaced the site wide font choice and you won't have to format it anywhere. Heck, I say that half jokingly but half serious, you guys have an idea for how you want this site to look, the first place it should be addressed is in the site template itself, affecting every page. You could make this site black, give it a monospaced green font and make it come up exactly like a terminal, then all we'd have to do is enter unformatted text and it would look identical to the game. I don't know what you guys want as an end result, frankly I like test2 and test3 because I don't like breaking the text apart too much, ruins the flow of the page. But the fact is <pre> tags are the wrong way to go about whatever style you are looking for and putting spaces before lines is even worse (it's an editing nightmare). If you wanted to do this site wide, you could set the default style for "{white-space: pre; font-family: monospace;}". Skace 15:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that everything should be handled with CSS files. Everything else is unnecessarily complex. Probably something like <div class="identify> or <span> or something. --Poromenos 19:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I like #6. --Dunec 16:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Haha Dunec I was wondering if you read the recent changes section. 6 would be better if I had a screenshot of the in-game view to go by but I did it from memory. I'll create a #7 from home that should look better. Skace 17:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

"which is, in approximate order of usefulness the dirs, the map, the items/mobs, instructions and the description." Ok, right, You wouldn't build the website in that order though, would you? Putting the directions first, then a giant map, then random information, and finally the description of the area. At least, I would hope not, it would look stupid. Which proves that you don't order the information by order of importance, you order it by relevance and based on a general design that flows. Despite being the most important piece of information, the map is last because it's huge and takes up tons of space, your most relevant piece of information is your description. Now, you said a person could just type "area Sentinel" and get the same info. I agree completely. Which is why most of the stuff that comes from inside the game... help information... area description is mainly filler, you start with that and hopefully you rewrite and improve on it over time. For instance, I want a page for gold, I might help gold copy and paste it into the page and start from there. But hopefully over time people who read the page and go "that really doesn't help me" and they edit it and put in what might help them or what they finally learned after asking 30 different people and begging for help. This argument hits home if we were to start talking about the class pages, the class pages look OK right now, but they barely answer any questions someone might have when picking a class: "what's the best race? what stats do I need? what skills are most important? how does this class play?" But by having a decent setup, we can allow for that information to be built upon. Now you'll notice, I'm not arguing the relevant usefulness of directions. Because I need them too. However I've never had trouble copy and pasting the 3rd or 4th line down as opposed to the first line. You shouldn't set your site up like it's maps.google.com or that is all it will ever be. The directions to every location in the game could be replaced a month later with a single zmud script that loads all the directions into zmud for you and then that information would be superfluous. Skace 17:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want to know what is wrong with pre boxes. Take a look at Template:Area and try and figure out what is wrong. Skace 17:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

To reply to Pollo, the original templates were put in place only because I didn't know how to create an actual template. The new way of organising information is incomparably better and we should convert all the old ones to the new format immediately after it is standardised. I like the look of the old templates (with the directions on top, etc) and will try to keep it that way, but it should be done with actual MediaWiki templates instead of the old, pastable templates. This part has bugged me ever since I started the site, and with Skace's help it is finally being addressed. --Poromenos 14:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Sandbox

Test1

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...

It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.

Locations it can be worn: neck

Special properties: organic

Alignments allowed: evil neutral

This armor has a gold value of 25.

Armor class is 4 of 4.

Affects affected_by by sneak

Affects moves by -25.

Test2

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...
It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.
Locations it can be worn: neck
Special properties: organic
Alignments allowed: evil neutral
This armor has a gold value of 25.
Armor class is 4 of 4.
Affects affected_by by sneak
Affects moves by -25.

Test3

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...
It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.
Locations it can be worn: neck
Special properties: organic
Alignments allowed: evil neutral
This armor has a gold value of 25.
Armor class is 4 of 4.
Affects affected_by by sneak
Affects moves by -25.

Test4

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...
It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.
Locations it can be worn:  neck
Special properties:  organic
Alignments allowed:  evil neutral
This armor has a gold value of 25.
Armor class is 4 of 4.
Affects affected_by by sneak
Affects moves by -25.

Test5

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...
It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.
Locations it can be worn: neck
Special properties: organic
Alignments allowed: evil neutral
This armor has a gold value of 25.
Armor class is 4 of 4.
Affects affected_by by sneak
Affects moves by -25.

Test6

Object 'black cloak' is infused with your magic...
It is a level 3 armor, weight 3.
Locations it can be worn: neck
Special properties: organic
Alignments allowed: evil neutral
This armor has a gold value of 25.
Armor class is 4 of 4.
Affects affected_by by sneak
Affects moves by -25.

How do you specify more than one source mob? --Sartier 20:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)